saltwind 78 wrote:
straight, Just to set the facts straight, It was Hamas that attacked the Israeli people.
Of course it was. I never said any different. I even explained their motive for doing it as part of an ongoing war. This is the part of the story that the Israeli narrative denies.
saltwind 78 wrote:
They committed this barbarous act of mass murder, torture, rape , kidnapping for no apparent reason.
OK, so you really didn't read my post did you? I already covered that too. So far, most reports of these barbarous acts have been debunked and we are still waiting for real evidence that it even happened. As for the kidnapping we know very well why they did it. To gain leverage for the release of thousands of Palestinian hostages that the Israeli narrative conveniently forgets to mention.
saltwind 78 wrote:
This occurred at a " peace concert attended by Israelis and others.
Maybe it was unwise to host a "peace concert" where everyone is having a good time, within earshot of an occupied territory where oppressed people who were NOT invited are kept behind fences to die of starvation and disease. Have you even thought about that?
saltwind 78 wrote:
The main obstacle toward peace is that Hamas refuses to recognize Israels right to exist and insists on destroying the state and it's Jewish population.
I won't dispute the sentiment as you describe it, in fact I already covered THAT in my OP as well when I said...
Yes, they want to destroy Israel. But that's a pipedream fostered by religious zealots. Most Palestinians just want to be liberated from Israel's inhumane oppression"I WILL dispute your claim that this religiously-driven fanaticism is the main obstacle... It is not. In fact the conflict has been a problem long before Hamas even came around. The main obstacle are the Z*****ts that have been trying to rid the land of Palestinians for almost a century now.
saltwind 78 wrote:
Israel was created in part as a refuge for Jews persecuted around the world.
I understand that, but it's no excuse to take land from others who were already living there. A lot of ethnic groups have been persecuted around the world - I don't see any of them claiming ownership of other people's land.
saltwind 78 wrote:
Many Jewish citizens of Israel are children and grandchildren of the Holocaust. Its credo has always been " never again ". Hamas knew this, which meant that they knew Israels response would be war.
The Z*****t quest for a Jewish state in the Levant started in the late 19th century. The Holocaust didn't happen until much later. The significance of the Holocaust in this context is that it provided the Z*****ts with a more justifiable excuse to demand their own state, whereas before they were depending on religious claims, legal loopholes and terrorism aimed at British targets during the mandate.
And yes Hamas was probably hoping Israel would negotiate, while also expecting them to attack, but it doesn't make any sense to call the Israeli response a war, because all parties involved were already at war.
saltwind 78 wrote:
Israel has not had occupation troops in Gaza for decades.
That doesn't mean anything. Israel still controls the borders, they control who and what can come in an go out. They still periodically launch attacks, cut their electricity and their water. Israel never stopped occupying Gaza, it's just safer for them to do it from outside the borders. Gaza is only 5 miles long and 3 miles wide. Why would Israel need soldiers inside such a tiny place just to keep it under their control to and torture the occupants?
saltwind 78 wrote:
Many Palestinians worked in Israel, and received far higher compensation than is possible anywhere on the Gaza Strip. It is believed that some of those Palestinian workers in Israel gave the Hamas terrorists maps and location of targets in Israel.
Some Palestinians DO work in Israel... but they are NOT treated equally and are often abused. But yes, they often do get better compensation, especially when their employers in Gaza are destroyed by Israeli forces.
saltwind 78 wrote:
The attack occurred during the same kind of cease fire that Hamas now demands, and has sworn to continue the same kind of attacks in the future.
This is what I meant in my OP when I said...
"The Palestinian people don't have the capacity to sustain a constant battle with US-funded Israel. So the war is broken into rounds where the Palestinians are militarily defeated and there's a period of peace, but even during that "peace" Israel continues to abuse and provoke."So yes, time and time again Israel gets the Palestinians to cry uncle and agree to a ceasefire, which simply means the tactics switch from full-scale combat back to a cycle of low-attrition warfare in which Israel continues to abuse and provoke the Palestinians until they try to fight again.
It's contant... There has only been ONE war. From 1949 to now. This is what war looks like when one side is so weak it can barely stand up to fight but the other side wants to k**l them anyway. Like the Indian Wars in our own history. We think if them as separate unrelated events but they were all part of the same effort to displace all the native Americans.
saltwind 78 wrote:
Palestinians could have had a state decades ago, but after getting great concessions from the Israelis, The PLO refused to finalize the agreement.
Israel never made any real concessions. They talk up a game in western media but every effort to negotiate peace was always doomed by one thing. The Z*****ts wanted it all. Their concessions NEVER actually included a Palestinian state and that's all the PLO was asking for.
saltwind 78 wrote:
Of course the Palestinians do have a state already. Jordan was part of the original UK mandate of Palestine, and is populated mostly from Palestinians.
Jordan was indeed part of the British mandate, but that mandate was part of a division of land between the western powers that defeated the Ottoman Empire and had no relation to how the Arab people that were living there were divided ethnically.
https://static.onepoliticalplaza.com/upload/2024/5/8/428157-mandatesandethnicities.jpg
What people seem to forget is that Palestine was never an actual state. It has always been a reference to an area that has often been divided into different political entities. So while most people in Jordan are Palestinians, 50% of them are actually refugees from a different part of Palestine... The part that the Z*****ts took.
So what you are saying would be no different than saying it's OK for China to take over the US, because Canada is still part of North America so we can just move there.
saltwind 78 wrote:
Although I am a Z*****t, meaning I believe that Israel is a state, and ought to be, I never liked Netanyahu, or the Likud. I think of him as a kind of Israeli Trump.
OK, so you can at least distinguish between Likud as a party and Israel as a state. That's a lot better than many.
I also believe Israel is a state and should remain so but I am NOT a Z*****t. So it seems we don't agree on what Z*****m actually is. The reason why I think Israel has a right to exist is because at this point, there are many Israelis that were born in Israel and have no other home. Just call that a consideration for the Jewish people that Z*****ts continue to deny to Palestinians.
At it's most basic level, Z*****m is the effort to "get home". For example, there are many references to Z*****m in Rastafari thinking where descendants of s***es dream about going back to Africa. But they don't talk about stealing land from people who already live on it. The Jewish Z*****m that started in Hungary in the late 19th century was an effort to TAKE land from people already living there AND k*****g them if they dare to fight back. It's a very aggressive and violent form of z*****m and that's a big reason why I am stoutly anti-Z*****t. The biggest reason for me is that they are still doing it.